4 Lessons from the 2024 Bogleheads Conference

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I recently attended the 2024 Bogleheads Conference. This was my second time attending. 

Bogleheads

You may not be familiar with the Bogleheads. In my write-up of the 2022 conference, I explain what a Boglehead is and how this group came to be. You can start there for some background.

For the rest of you, here are my biggest takeaways from the 2024 conference…

Start With a Solid Foundation

Three of the most valuable talks simplified topics that can be overwhelming. I’ll share each of the videos in a future “Best of” post once they are released. Until then, here are the high-level points that resonated with me.

Jim Dahle on Asset Protection

Asset protection can be scary because we live in a litigious society. This can cause people to pursue unnecessarily expensive and often ineffective strategies out of fear. Conversely, it can trap people from taking reasonable actions because they become trapped in analysis paralysis.

Dahle’s talk emphasized easing fears by providing statistics on the rarity of judgments that exceed liability policy limits. He then offered actionable advice to mitigate the real risks that do exist.

  • Be aware of why people are sued and mitigate those risks. These are often simple actions like driving less and driving more carefully when you do, taking care of your property, and if you are in a high-risk profession like medicine being competent and being nice.
  • Have an appropriate amount of insurance. This encourages the insurance company to fight for you if sued and encourages people to settle for a reasonable amount rather than fight for above policy-limit judgments.
  • Understand the laws of your state which vary considerably and develop your plan accordingly.
  • Utilize your retirement accounts which offer creditor protection.
  • Title assets appropriately and use corporate structures for potentially toxic assets like rental real estate.

Mike Piper on Roth Conversions

Mike Piper talked about Roth IRA conversions. This topic is complicated because of all the assumptions and uncertainty involved in the analysis. It is also a topic that gets more attention than it deserves. 

This combination can cause people to pursue the strategy for the wrong goals and/or at the wrong time due to unrealistic expectations about what the conversions can accomplish and an overeagerness to pursue conversions.

Piper’s presentation was excellent from start to finish, breaking down the analysis behind Roth conversions. The most valuable part was clarifying reasonable expectations for Roth conversions.

Piper explained Roth conversions can decrease or eliminate excessive required minimum distributions (RMDs) later in life. Roth conversions can also reduce or eliminate tax drag on taxable accounts (by spending taxable dollars to “buy more space” in tax-advantaged accounts when doing the conversion).

Equally importantly, he explained what Roth conversions are unlikely to achieve. They are unlikely to substantially improve your chance of not running out of money in retirement. In cases when people run out of money they tend to burn through taxable accounts quickly. This minimizes tax drag. When they reach RMD age, they need those RMDs to pay expenses.

The causes of retirement failures are:

  • A bad early sequence of returns.
  • Spending shocks (health issues, housing, divorce, etc.)

Roth conversions don’t help any of those issues. Hearing this stated so clearly was valuable. It will help me better frame discussions around Roth conversions when writing about this topic and working with clients. 

Jenny Rozelle on Estate Planning

Jenny Rozelle is an estate planning attorney. She provided a framework for understanding the foundations of developing an estate plan.

I appreciated the clarity with which she outlined the “Core 4” components everyone needs in an estate plan.

  1. An advanced directive/living will,
  2. A medical power of attorney (health care representative),
  3. A financial power of attorney, and
  4. A last will and testament.

She also discussed the essentials of properly titling accounts and naming beneficiaries on retirement accounts and insurance policies to avoid probate.

I got the opportunity to speak with Rozelle after her talk. I asked for her opinion of online tools like Trust & Will and Wealth.com as lower-cost estate planning options. She offered me nuanced takes on each, but generally supported using these lower-cost options to help more people establish basic estate plans.

At the same time, she noted that if you have more complexity in your life (i.e. having minor children or children with special needs, a business, or real estate investments) then not meeting with an estate planning attorney to develop and periodically reassess an estate plan can be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

I appreciate her perspectives and honesty. Asking an estate planning attorney if you need complex estate plans and documents can be like asking a barber if you need a haircut.

She provides a helpful framework to think through this complex topic.

Common Principles Can Lead to Different Tactics

The Bogleheads conference also features panels and interviews. These sessions feature thought leaders across investing, financial planning, and retirement research.

Karen Domato moderated “Investing Experts” and “Financial Planning Experts” panels and Jon Luskin moderated the “Withdrawal Rate Rumble.” All were excellent.

Among my favorite interviews were Christine Benz and Jonathan Guyton discussing retirement spending strategies and William Bernstein’s conversation with fellow financial historian Richard Sylla about market history and long-term trends with interest rates.

These sessions provide an opportunity to see how the same common set of principles that unite people at the conference and the same data and historical information available to us all are used to develop different individual tactics and philosophies. 

All of the moderators and interviewers respectfully challenge other positions and facilitate interesting conversations. This helps the rest of us find strategies that match our own needs and personalities.

The FIRE is Spreading

I was the lone FIRE voice when I spoke at the Bogleheads conference just two years ago. I opened my talk with a joke about how appreciative I was to be invited because outside of the FIRE community, FIRE types are often viewed with the same amount of respect and prestige as the GameStop investors and influencers making TikTok videos. Both were prominent in financial news at that time for all the wrong reasons.

Two years later there were individual talks by FIRE content producers Leif Dahleen, Jordan Grumet, and Paula Pant and a “FIRE All-Stars” panel with Grumet, Pant, Jackie Cummings Koski, and Karsten Jeske. Jeske was also on a panel about safe withdrawal rates.

When I wrote about my experience at the Bogleheads conference two years ago, I received a few comments critical of the Bogleheads forums as often “closed minded” and “dogmatic.” I do not get that sense at the conference.

In addition to the increased FIRE focus, a variety of other topics not typically associated with the Bogleheads were discussed at the conference this year….even cryptocurrencies. Only time will tell what topics and sub-groups of the Bogleheads will have staying power and long-term validity.

For now, I appreciate the open-minded discussions and the Bogleheads’ willingness to be open to exploring new ideas at the conference. This includes FIRE principles which have a lot of synergy with the Bogleheads’ philosophies on investing, thrift, and thinking about “enough.”

Investors are Human

This year’s conference focused a lot on technical topics including factor investing and safe withdrawal rates. Whether on purpose or by chance, the final few sessions of the conference provided an important reminder of the human side of investing and personal finance.

Paula Pant delivered a light, fun, but simultaneously thought-provoking talk about different psychological prototypes. They subconsciously impact, and if we’re not intentional can dominate, the role money plays in our lives.

In the Financial Planning Experts Panel, Carolyn McClanahan shared a few simple yet profound questions she frequently asks clients. They are questions we should all consider. 

  • While others on the panel focused on optimal asset allocations or investment strategies, McClanahan reminded everyone there is no way to determine those things for an individual without answering a prerequisite question. What is the goal of your investments?
  • She also shared simple, yet profound, questions she asks clients who get overly retirement-focused. Are you happy now? What’s working? What’s not?

In that same Financial Planning Experts panel, Harry Sit emphasized the value of simplicity in your financial plan. He had a few great lines. One in particular stood out to me.

With regards to using a TIPS fund vs. building a bond ladder, he said the following in effect (I’m paraphrasing). I could build a TIPS ladder. I literally wrote a book on it. But I use a fund because it’s good enough and I prefer the simplicity.

The final sessions provided a reminder of underappreciated types of intelligence and wisdom that are at least as important to being a good investor as being able to rattle off statistics or cite academic studies:

  • Know yourself and develop your plans accordingly.
  • Be humble and always try to ask better questions rather than rushing to show how much you know.
  • When there are multiple options, choose the most simple one unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.

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[Chris Mamula used principles of traditional retirement planning, combined with creative lifestyle design, to retire from a career as a physical therapist at age 41. After poor experiences with the financial industry early in his professional life, he educated himself on investing and tax planning. After achieving financial independence, Chris began writing about wealth building, DIY investing, financial planning, early retirement, and lifestyle design at Can I Retire Yet? He is also the primary author of the book Choose FI: Your Blueprint to Financial Independence. Chris also does financial planning with individuals and couples at Abundo Wealth, a low-cost, advice-only financial planning firm with the mission of making quality financial advice available to populations for whom it was previously inaccessible. Chris has been featured on MarketWatch, Morningstar, U.S. News & World Report, and Business Insider. He has spoken at events including the Bogleheads and the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants annual conferences. Blog inquiries can be sent to chris@caniretireyet.com. Financial planning inquiries can be sent to chris@abundowealth.com]

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[Chris Mamula used principles of traditional retirement planning, combined with creative lifestyle design, to retire from a career as a physical therapist at age 41. After poor experiences with the financial industry early in his professional life, he educated himself on investing and tax planning. After achieving financial independence, Chris began writing about wealth building, DIY investing, financial planning, early retirement, and lifestyle design at Can I Retire Yet? He is also the primary author of the book Choose FI: Your Blueprint to Financial Independence. Chris also does financial planning with individuals and couples at Abundo Wealth, a low-cost, advice-only financial planning firm with the mission of making quality financial advice available to populations for whom it was previously inaccessible. Chris has been featured on MarketWatch, Morningstar, U.S. News & World Report, and Business Insider. He has spoken at events including the Bogleheads and the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants annual conferences. Blog inquiries can be sent to chris@caniretireyet.com. Financial planning inquiries can be sent to chris@abundowealth.com]

15 Comments

  1. Thanks Chris for sharing your thoughts about the Bogleheads conference. I would love to attend someday. I just read two Mike Piper books (Can I Retire and Taxes Made Simple) and really enjoyed them. I knew most of what he talks about in those books, but was thinking how great these books would be for newbies. I like how you mentioned that you didn’t feel the Bogleheads were closed minded and dogmatic about FIRE. I frequent thier forum and don’t get that sense either overall. They can have strong opinions, but most are open minded. Thanks again for sharing. Can’t wait to watch the conference recordings!

    1. Fred,

      I agree Mike’s ability to explain complex topics with precision and simplicity is helpful for beginners, but I always seem to learn something new when I listen to him as well. That was the case with his presentation about Roth conversions where things I’ve read and hear multiple times before clicked for me in a way that hadn’t before.

      I agree with the open mindedness of the Bogleheads. I mentioned that only because that was not the impression shared by commenters when I wrote about the conference previously.

      Best,
      Chris

  2. Thanks for sharing the experience. I’ve considered attending, but don’t know if the juice is worth the squeeze. Again to paraphrase Harry, my current situation and plan is likely “good enough.”

    1. G,

      See my response to Jeff. Finding the right balance is always a challenge.

      Best,
      Chris

  3. What a nice post. I read and study way too much financial information than is normal because I find it fascinating. The one thing I’ve realized is that there’s rarely one single answer and that simplicity definitely wins. I just retired early and there are tons of things that come up, but there’s usually an answer that won’t lead to a very bad outcome, whether that’s about ACA insurance, withdrawal rate, where to keep your yearly budget cash etc. Bogleheads is a great resource.

    1. I agree Jeff that it is always a challenge to find the balance between continuing to learn and improve vs. understanding what is good enough. That’s why I found the message of the closing sessions interesting, whether it was intentional or by chance, for providing a counterbalance to many of the more technical topics covered at the conference.

      Best,
      Chris

  4. Thanks for your post, Chris. I attended this year’s conference and enjoy its energy. It’s nice to see and hear thought leaders in the flesh and to be around other conference attendees who care about these things as much as I do.

    1. I agree Sharon. I enjoyed the conference both times I attended and encourage others who are on the fence to check it out.

      Best,
      Chris

  5. Thank you Chris as always for sharing about this important experience. Such valuable tools to review. Idaho Nancy

    1. Thanks for reading and taking the time to comment Nancy. Great as always to hear from you!

  6. I’m 76 years old now and when I was in my 30’s and 40’s , there was considerably less information available regarding investing. I also tried several so called investing experts, but it quickly became obvious that their primary objective was to surreptitiously extract as much of my resources as possible. They frequently utilized overly optimistic assumptions and provided mind numbing documents called a prospectus that were intentionally designed to induce vertigo. The financial community has developed an ambiguous jargon designed to confuse and unnecessarily complicate investing so the average person will feel inadequate and blindly follow their recommendations. Over the years I have tried to educate myself regarding rational investing options, but I certainly do not consider myself any kind of expert. I tried using spreadsheets to determine if I was on track to accumulate sufficient resources for a reasonably comfortable retirement. I quickly realized the significant impact fees had on achieving my goals. As a result, I limited any investment in equities to index funds and ETF’s. I was fortunate enough o negotiate lifetime healthcare coverage for my wife and which eliminates a huge concern for many individuals. In addition I purchased long term care insurance with a onetime large premium with a 5% annual compounding of benefits. My reasoning for that was to avoid any significant escalation in annual premiums that could potentially force me to reduce benefits or drop the policy after I retired. My advice to anyone concerned with achieving a reasonable amount of retirement resources is to educate yourself and subscribe to this forum.

  7. Hi, I got a little lost trying to follow the thinking in this set of lines, “In cases when people run out of money they tend to burn through taxable accounts quickly. This minimizes tax drag. When they reach RMD age, they need those RMDs to pay expenses.” I am not sure which parts of that are the good ideas (?minimize tax drag?) and which parts are the risky parts that can lead to running out of money?
    Can you try to say more about that? I am expecting to consume my RMDs to pay expenses when I get to age 75+ (maybe the RMDs will be more than I will need?), not sure if that plan is what risks running out of money? I have about equal dollar amounts in tax-deferred and taxable brokerage accounts. Wouldn’t I have higher amounts in the tax-deferred, and hence larger RMDs than I need for expenses, if I spend down the taxable account money first? I guess I am not following what you were trying to say at all, but sometimes I can be pretty concrete and need things spelled out better. Can you help? Thanks

    1. August,

      Sorry if I was not clear with conveying Mike’s point with the clarity he expressed it. The point I was trying to make is this.

      It is common that people get overzealous pursuing Roth conversions when they are unlikely to help (and may even hurt) you. To avoid this, it is important to understand what Roth conversions can accomplish and what they can’t.

      What they generally CAN’T accomplish is substantially improving your chances of retirement success (i.e. NOT running out of money in retirement). To understand why this is the case, it is important to understand what Roth conversions CAN accomplish.

      1.) Roth conversions can decrease the tax impact of large required minimum distributions which tend to be taxed at high rates later in life when you can’t control the size of the distribution (because it is a required distribution). This is particularly problematic if your RMD exceeds your spending needs and you need to reinvest the extra proceeds in a taxable account (more on this below). Roth conversions help by enabling you to pay tax at lower rates when doing the conversion earlier in life when you can control the size of the conversions and thus the tax brackets on those dollars.

      Large RMDs later in life, particularly when they are larger than your spending needs, is generally not a problem in cases where you may run out of money. It is an issue for people that have too much money saved in tax-deferred accounts. So while conversions are helpful for solving THAT problem, it generally doesn’t provide much help for those in danger of running out of money in retirement who need their RMDs to provide living expenses.

      2.) Roth conversions can also decrease tax drag on taxable accounts. They can help on the front end of the conversion if you use money from a taxable account, where it would be subject to tax drag, to pay the tax on the conversion. This allows you to convert ALL of the tax-deferred dollars to Roth dollars rather than withholding some of them to pay the tax. The net result is that you are decreasing money in your taxable account where it would be subject to tax drag to “buy more space” in your Roth account where dollars are not subject to tax drag.

      So while conversions are helpful if you have a large taxable account, in cases where you may run out of money in retirement you likely won’t have a large taxable account for long. Taxable dollars are generally the first dollars spent, so you will tend to burn through them pretty quickly. Thus Roth conversions aren’t particularly helpful at reducing tax drag in that scenario.

      Roth conversions can also help decrease tax drag on the back end for some people. If you have RMDs that are larger than you need and want to spend, then you would have to reinvest the proceeds into a taxable account where again those dollars are subject to tax drag. Roth accounts don’t have annual tax drag and are not subject to RMDs, allowing you to shield these dollars after the conversion for the rest of your life (+ potentially 10 additional years at which point your heirs eventually have to take the money from the Roth account). Again this is great IF you anticipate having larger RMDs than you will need.

      However, if you need all of your RMDs to meet your spending needs, you won’t be reinvesting any proceeds in a taxable account. So again Roth conversions don’t help you in that scenario.

      Hopefully that clarifies rather than adding to your confusion.

      Best,
      Chris

      1. Thanks !
        I very much appreciate your time and effort to explain that. I do understand now.
        Looking forward to when the videos are available from the conference.

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